I worked in a church where the Sr. Pastor required the staff to wear Suits!! Everyday! If I had a ballgame or event to go to I could change as I was leaving the office, boy that office was a ton o fun! I then went to another church where the ‘dress code’ was normal slacks and dress shirt. I hated the suit deal and tolerated the other dress codes. But my 35,000 view of the situation has changed as I am now in the
‘business’ world. I don’t have a problem with Youth Ministers wearing shorts and T’s during the summer on the way to lake party etc. I do, however, believe that a certain image of immaturity is portrayed when Youth Ministers, are they called Student pastors now, dress without care for no reason at all - as in ‘just another day in the office’. I think your call to examine the “me” side of the blame is overdue and necessary for respect. Not for suits, not for shorts everyday, just for wise decision making when wearing clothes in front of people who eventually can help when budget time rolls around.

i think this stems from the difference between authority and power. authority comes with relationship - and when the board and senior pastor are either too busy or incapable of developing relationships with their staff they resort to power to get their way instead of speaking with the authority of relationship.

i also believe that broken people are called to ministry - maybe it’s a need to be needed, or just that we broken ones know how much difference it would have made in our lives if someone had done for us what we attempt to do for others. broken people make others uncomfortable. many times we struggle with addictions, many times we are unable to keep inane rules that seem so far from logic. sometimes we get too caught up in the people to care about the procedures. and broken people make people who want to pretend to be perfect really, really uncomfortable. and senior pastors are usually required not to be broken people - so they must maintain a level of protection around them, and those of us around who don’t can be really, really threatening.

as we’ve gone through this same thing a couple of times professionally and once as volunteers we know that there are things we really dropped the ball on - but there is never an excuse for the abuse of power. we are called to reconciliation - if we can’t do it within the staff of the church how are we ever going to model it in the kingdom?

Man… I hate to hear stories like that, and they do seem to come around all too often. Personally, I’m not so sure that it’s got a whole lot to do with the image of a youth pastor. It seems to me like it’s a combination of a lot of other factors. Sometimes it’s a significance issue, sometimes it’s a competence (or perceived incompetence) issue, and lots of times it’s just an issue of very poor communication (either on the part of the SP, the YP, or both).

I’m convinced that a large part of it has to do with the ever changing field of field of church politics, and the messiness that can come from overbearing boards or elders and fearful senior pastors. I know very few senior pastors who acknowledge conflict and deal with it well.

As I reread this, I think I’m basically just spewing out the same things you’ve already said. I think that the larger share of the responsibility falls on the senior pastor though. As the shepherd of the church, they have the greater responsibility to communicate clearly their expectations and to acknowledge and deal with conflict when it does come up. And don’t even get me started on how most churches deal with sins of their leaders…kick em out, kill their reputation and keep your heads high. Ouch!

Marko,

leI have a theroy on this grown from my experinces in Youth Ministry. Simply stated it has two key points: the research factor and the bomb squad factor.

Let’s face it. The typical academic course load in a seminary is skewed toward impeccable research ability. These men and women learn how to find out who said what, where, and when - in the original languages if need be. (You need all that for the quotes in you sermons.) Few institutions focus on interpersonal skills or community building with intensity. The best most get is some “people management” skills classes (as if people can be managed - or should be.)

Youth Ministry is the more dangerous than bomb squad work. We deal with the most volitile substances on the planet: people’s faith and children. It’s not a matter of if it will blow up - just when. But that’s OK, there’s always more where that one came from and they are a lot cheaper than “skilled” pastors.

bobbie - i agree with this:
“and when the board and senior pastor are either too busy or incapable of developing relationships with their staff they resort to power to get their way instead of speaking with the authority of relationship”
but i also think we youth workers (collectively) have blamed boards or senior pastors in many cases when it was our OWN relational deficiency or lack of desire for relationship that was the undoing.

T — i was worried when i used that illustration in my post that people would think i was talking about clothing. i’m not. that’s maybe 3% of the issue. frankly, i think we should just wear comfortable clothes (i have a rant on that coming in a day or two or more). but to focus on that would be to miss the point, really. maturity isn’t measured in clothes, any more than it’s measured in keeping office hours.

T - traditions (you know group attempts at keeping the unexpected from happening) are often justified with insinuations that the money holders will be happier if the everyone just complies. If a youth worker’s dress habits effects their pay or MINISTRY funding - they need to do their thing elsewhere, because the people in charge of that situation will eventually destroy them.

Thought. Why does one join a ministry? Because one is called to be there (a duty) or because we love the Lord so much that we will go where ever He sends us? Most of us would eat a worm if it made it possible for a kid to come to a better understanding of the love Christ has for them. But would we be willing to wear what ever we need to wear or be on time when we agree to be on time, etc. If we are in love with God’s bride in our individual churches then let’s do what ever it takes to share that love. I know this is probably way to simplistic. Just my thoughts.

sure, markeades — but you should not be made to eat a worm. and i’ll tell you this — you are NOT called to a church where they expect you to eat worms.

but, again, this is about SO much more than clothes!

Great topic Marko. I completely agree with the whole concept of shared responsibility. One acts and the other reacts which causes the other to then react–an so the cycle begins. Which came first: the chicken or the egg?–which came first: the truly immature youth pastor or the authority figure(s) that simply think that the youth pastor is immature no matter what?
I am reading a book right now entitled “Leadership and Self Deception: Getting Out of the Box” Deals with authority issues… Though secular, a book that every pastor, board member and president of youth specialties should read (though I don’t think Zondervan published it… ha)!
Grace!

brian — this sentence of yours is a great way to put what i was asking:
“which came first: the truly immature youth pastor or the authority figure(s) that simply think that the youth pastor is immature no matter what?”

Obviously there are a lot of situations that are bad out there because of the Senior/board. But one way in which youth pastors make it harder on themselves is in their expectations of what their relationship will be with the senior pastor.

In multiple churches I’ve seen men or women who are bright and talented hired as the youth pastor because the senior expects them to help carry part of the load of the church. He wants help in the ministry, and understandably so. Meanwhile, the bright and talented youth pastor probably brings in some wounds of their own, and is looking, at least in part, to be pastored. Conflict arises for the senior when she/he realizes that the youth pastor is going to require time/effort, when he expected that they would help carry the burden, not be the burden. Conflict arises for the youth pastor when she/he realizes that they are pretty much on their own spiritually - they cant turn to anyone in the church, and the senior wants someone to help pull the weight, not add more weight. Maybe this doenst even happen at a conscious level, but somehow the senior ends up with the idea that the youth pastor is just adding to his work load…and the youth pastor gets the idea that they cant measure up enough to get what they’re looking for personally.

A good question might be: is this phenomena restricted to Youth Ministers?

Seems to me that I’ve seen this kind of thing happen with many different types of ministries within churches (both with my husband and I as volunteers, and what we’ve seen for other types of paid positions). Possibly it’s been more frequent with Youth ministers, but I’m not sure.

I’ve wondered for years about the complexity of desires and motivations within us that draw us into ministry, and how often that seems to result in painful experiences. Not necessarily stemming from any one point of view - senior pastor, other pastor, or commited volunteer - but somehow there seems to be something inherently fragile in all these relationships.

I think that we are working so hard to make this work and these relationships be something purer than a regular working relationship “in the world”, that we expose intimate parts of ourselves that are very vulnerable to abuse of power. And our very humanity makes that application or abuse of power almost inevitable in most organizations…

Sorry if I rambled…

chris(tine) — my observations (not based on research) are that this is SUBSTANTIALLY more the soup d’jour for youth workers than it is for other ministry areas.

OK - I believe you - my experience is much more limited! :)

That’s a bummer, ’cause I’ve seen more than enough pain across the board - even more for youth ministers is a shame.

Marko - you bet if you are in a church that makes you eat worms then there is something wrong. My point wasn’t on doing things for the church but what is our hearts for the church we are in. Do we truly love the people in our church body? When we make a stand on something what motivates us to make that stand. My heart is that when I’m willing to make a stand on something I’m doing it for the right motives and purpose.

Jennifer… interesting observations about expectations of the SP and YP. My personal opinion–based on very limited experience and lots of hearsay–is something along the lines of “too many chiefs.” The vast majority of people who take on ministry roles (whether paid or volunteer) have leadership capabilities. Part of being a leader means having a vision for where you and the group you are leading will be going. The conflict arises when the leaders have differing ideas about the destination. Some senior pastors have never had youth ministry experience and youth pastors resent their input as a result. Some senior pastors have had previous youth ministry experience–therefore giving them “credence” to micro-manage. Either way, we youth ministers, don’t really like being told what to do. After all, we’re leaders. Maturity definitely plays a role.

I happened to have had a pastor who was almost TOO good at conflict resolution. As soon as he was aware of conflict, he made a bee-line for you. I respected him for that. But after 8 years at that church, I began to recognize that I’d grown in a different direction than the church had. From my standpoint submitting meant leaving the church. Had I stayed too long the resentment would have built regardless of the conflict resolution skills of my pastor. My $.02

As someone who has struggled with authority issues in the past (as in this afternoon) your post makes me think. You are right in stating that this is way more than an issue of clothing. I recently was told by my executive pastor that I have a reputation of questioning everything. My response was that he was right but that I also have a high level of respect for people who make right informed decisions and that I have no problem following them.

I think the big issue in all of this is the Top Down leadership debate. The question that most Youth pastors seems to struggle with is “why don’t they include me in the decisions” about the whole church. It often seems like a small group of people who have the best parking spots, the highest salaries and the most perks that are making decisions that affect us.

What I don’t understand is why so many senior pastors are so bad at discipling and loving their staff? Even weirder is that most of them got their starts as “us”. There are very few people in the church that haven’t worked with students in some reguard. But, was it when we created something that was more than a stepping stone that this all got skewed. Professional Youth Ministry is something we really don’t have figured out yet.

Anyways that’s what I think…..And I’m not allowed to wear flipflops to the office….and I’m a 1/4 mile from the beach……weird.

You are singing my song Marko. I think a big part of it is in the hiring process. In my experience, the churches don’t really know their values. They think they do but they know their articulated values and not their actual values. So they inadvertently mislead you.

I’m positive some youth workers don’t know themselves either, but I understand who I am pretty well. But none of that applies to abuse.

I can’t write too much because I’m sure I’d write too much, if you know what I mean. It’s such a need that needs to be addressed on both sides but unless Hybles or Warren does it, i don’t know if most senior pastors will hear it from “just a youth worker”.

As someone relatively young (22) and still in Bible college I even see this tension between preaching majors and youth ministry majors. Preaching majors get on our backs and poke fun at us on campus all the time for not really graduating with a “real” Bible degree (even though I will graduate with both a Bachelors of Since in Biblical Studies and Bachelors of Science in Youth Ministry)

ill write something about this later on (hopefully) but i think there are a couple of things in pay, especially where youth workers are involved.

a) a misunderstanding of the ministry that youth workers are called to, this includes the idea that anything with the word “youth” attached to it suddenly becomes the sole responsability of the youth worker, even if a young person forgets to do the offering in church, the youth worker cops it…

and b) a misunderstanding of the definition of youth worker. i think that for many churches the definition of youth worker is “pseudo young person.” using this definition means that we expect the youth worker to do strange things, but that we also expect to tell them off on occasions, punish them, silence them in meetings, should be seen and not heard, send them to their room and spank them when they do something that we disagree with. yet, we’re not pseudo youth workers, and should be treated with as much respect as the minister/pastor, unfortunately this will never happen if the definition is always understood as pseudo young person.

Good point, and honestly it’s one I hadn’t taken into consideration. It seems we are always ready to be the victim, but at times it is clear, we put ourselves in front of the bus. I can’t tell you how many times I have marveled at how awesome it is that I am the rebel pastor. The one who doesn’t follow the rules, and who flaunts his tattoos like a badge of coolness. It has only now occured to me that maybe those decisions hurt the future of the youth program. Thank you for the insight bro.

Dusty

Whoa - this is a hard post to read. As someone who’s been fired from two youth ministry positions, this hits close to home. And I have to say that, yeah, there are probably faults of mine that contributed.

But I have to say this as well. Most of this is because churches are piss-poor at managing staff. Expectations are not communicated, or, if they are, what is communicated and what is really expected are two different things. They don’t give feedback, they don’t provide reviews (even when *asked*), and they don’t make any effort to develop their staff. And, let’s be real, they don’t (by and large) pay youth pastors a living wage either. Frankly, it communicates that it’s easier for a church to terminate a youth pastor than work through any challenges or development opportunities that a person with less than desired performance might present. We, often, are disposable.

I know this is one sided. But I’ve seen it over and over. Myself, friends, acquaintances - discarded from ministry, trampled and left on the junkpile because it was “the right thing to do”.

Sorry for the rant. But I’ve worked in the corporate world long enough now to know that what many churches do to staff members is criminal.

well… it seams to me that youth ministry has become tame. It use to be the wild west (fun, passionate.. but often not well reasoned) .. but now it is to often part of a Church Corporation. We went pro… except no one told us….(we do get paid now) Why should we be surprised when we are ” moved on” because we do not add value to the Church Corporate bottom line.

More people in the door and more esteem for the senior pastor.

Youth ministry at it’s best does not like to line up.. partly because of maturity but also because students are to often marginalized and when the church asks us to run systems that have the same tendencies … we leave … or get booted..

maybe that is the greatest mark of being a good youth pastor?… being kicked to the curb. Then again maybe it the mark of a bad one too.

scott - i totally agree with you. and i sure hope you don’t read my comments and questions as a condemnation on you or any particular youth worker. i know of plenty of cases where very little fault lies with the youth worker, and the system or the pastor or the board is just wacked.

it’s just that when i see the overwhelming regularity of this kind of never-excusable treatment, i have to wonder what role we play in creating it — at least collectively, if not individually.

brian — all i can say is “preaching major”? please.

I think part of it is the roles that each person has…and the staff unwillingness to understand and be open about those roles.

Those of us in associate and youth positions are often by nature and by task put in a position where our role is more of a prophetic role.

A SP often sees themselves in more of a preistly, guardian, caretaker role.

If more SPs understood the value and the direction of the YPs role, and could articulate the value of that to leadership while at the same time not surrendering completely to giving the YP whatever he wants, things might work a little better

as for the dress code thing…i have mixed feelings.

I have learned to do more of the formal thing, and I can see why.

but on the other hand…form follows function…

and if the YP got paid more than the secretary and custodian those demands might be more in line

On the other hand, there are a lot of very charasmatic yet moronic youth pastors that try to get by on personality and good looks and only get so far.

marko - i agree far too many youth workers don’t see their part in this ‘divorce’ - because really when you look at it as a divorce (which ultimately hurts the kids far more than the adults involved) you know that there are always two broken people when the marriage dissolves - two broken, responsible people.

but far too many times instead of the church seeking healing and wholeness - even if the seperation is necessary the axe falls, the YP and their family are left in tatters.

and the real casualty that goes relatively unnoticed by the church is that the youth become so jaded that you nearly loose a full generation before something fresh can be built up.

there needs to be a model for doing this well - god has given us the tools to handle conflict, build bridges and resolve relational issues - it’s just that we (the church) usually refuse to use them because they aren’t ‘nice’ or ‘easy’, or we’re far too busy.

the business model falls flat here - you can’t have both community and business - it’s not just a work situation, it’s never just a ‘job’. the YP family is also a family in the flock - and that’s the diabolical part of this - they are rarely considered and treated like a family that needs ministry like any other family in the church.

i’m sure church boards cream senior pastors too - i know that there is ugliness that hits the worship guy or the children’s minister. i think it’s a bit more dramatic with the youth pastor because teenagers by nature are going through a negative, complaining, seperating stage in their lives. what 3 year old complains about the children’s pastor or tells their parents they don’t want them to volunteer and help out in children’s church??

like keith said above - faith and children are the most precious part of their lives - and things become highly volatile when conflict enters into this arena.

some seminars on conflict resolution and building bridges would be really helpful at NYWC (unfortunately those who probably need it most wouldn’t go…) you could call it ‘tired of getting fired?’ or ‘fire-proofing your job’ :)

One thing that I have recently realized is that as a youth worker, I am frustrated at the general church member’s and pastor’s inability to see youth ministry as a mission and as important. I have blamed them and allowed my frustration to influence what I do/say and how I interpret what is said to me.

The problem is that if they don’t understand then it is my own fault. I didn’t take the time to educate them, build relationships with them that allowed them to see me as a Christian adult and not a “big kid”.

Many times youth workers expect people to know what and why we are doing the things we do, yet we didn’t bother to take the time to explain it to them. Then we wonder why they don’t support us. Now this may not always be the root of the problem, but I think it is a good place to start looking.

Marko,
Dude, I completely understand that this is NOT about clothes. It was just near the end of your original post and therefore the first thing that got “typed” out. Also, culture plays a large part - So. Cal is a tad different in respects to dress code than many parts of the world. The first church I served in the students themselves didn’t wear shorts and T’shirts. Very “preppy” community with a ton of polo and sear sucker shorts but all that is way beside the point. I think an earlier poster by Scott B. hits on an excellent point. Communication. Expectations from the staff are not communicated well to the YP and the YP is often not good at communicating what is going on. I see a YS seminar in the making “How to communicate to your pastor”

Marko - not at all; I think your thoughts were balanced and well-said. I think, though, that churches often fail in their responsibility as employers. Frankly, I don’t think many churches think along those lines. They see the employees as having responsibility to the church, but they don’t see that they are similarly in a position of obligation to the staff. What that means is that, as an employer, they have a responsibility to provide for the development of their employees. If there are performance issues, they need to be addressed in a timely and professional manner. That doesn’t remove the responsibility of the employee for his or her own performance. I totally agree that there are lots of things that we do that we shouldn’t. But it does set it in the context of an employment relationship, in which feedback mechanisms are in place and evaluation is consistent and timely. These items are simply not being done in the vast majority of churches, and it’s the staff who suffer the consequences.

Let’s be real - there are only a few things that I can do at my corporate job that result in immediate termination. Most issues that might come up are treated through a formal system of feedback and evaluation, in which every effort is made to first develop the employee. But in the church, often the first sign that a youth pastor has that there’s an issue is when he or she is terminated. There may very well be good reason for doing so - but the church fails when it doesn’t allow opportunity for the youth pastor to receive that feedback and correct the issue.

Does YS have any resources for churches on managing staff? That’s something that would be of benefit to all parties.

scott — good idea about a resource. i don’t know how we’d get people to read it; but it’s worth considering.

All these stories, all these perceptions are exactly what makes us uniquely qualified to work with God’s young people. It is what makes us uniquely qualified to connect with those who have the most trouble connecting. Think about it…look back on your life and tell me when was the time you were at your most confused, most lost, most angry, most bewildered? Wouldn’t you have loved to have someone like the “adult” you to talk to. These problems are what we except in order to answer the call. We have a ministry committee that might yell at us. Ooooooo. Jesus ministry committee nailed him to something.

I agree with bobbie and what she said about YW being a little short sighted on hoe we may have helped cause our own demise.

But, not always. Although, in my first church it was my fault. The new SP wanted a guy and well…ummm…not a whole lot I could do about that! :)

The second church…the SP wanted me to be perfect and never have a “negative” emotion.

However, when I started as a volunteer 15 years ago or something like that…the HS Pastor was let go because he really didn’t ever come into the office and his wife (who wasn’t being paid) did most of his work. And this guy was shocked he was let go! Ugh!

I think I would remember having a conversation with Marko, but it is very eery that I read this post when I did and my husband insisted he didn’t have anything to do with it.

My husband was recently “asked to resign” from his position as Director of Youth and Young Adult Ministries after almost 4 years of service. This decision came as a shock not only to us, but to all of the students and their parents involved in the ministry. In order to get a severance package, my husband was asked to write a statement to be submitted in the church newsletter stating he had “resigned.” Which, as far as we were concerned, was being asked to lie. I understand the importance of appearances some times, but in this case, we would have rather the congregation know the truth behind my husband’s departure rather than think he just decided to up and leave on a moment’s notice.

I won’t ramble, but I wanted Marko to know that his post was amazing and truly God-sent. I don’t have an explaination for what happened to us just two weeks ago, but what I do know is that SO many students have been crushed and left asking “why”? My husband is a wonderful teacher and mentor, but more importantly, those kids KNEW without a doubt that he LOVED them, and what I have been left struggling with is why isn’t that enough?

So is there help for the unpaid volunteers left in the transition? We had a beloved team who were asked to leave after 7 years. Mistakes were made on both sides of the conflict and many people were left hurt and confused. The New Guy is here now (after 6 months of us volunteers and a very inexpereinced intern holding things together) and the kids are not happy - resistant to change and not yet willing to give him a chance. How do we as volunteers help the new guy not make the same mistakes and how do we break patterns in the culture of the students, parents, board and staff??

Marko - as one who been through this and pissed off that this happens all too often … I’m seeing some common threads.

1. A voice for youthworkers to rant and go over their frustrations.
2. Education of Sr. Pastors, Churches etc, and Institutions on YM and its dangers.
3. Conflict Resolution.
4. Resources for the hurting. NYWC is a start but not many who been recently Fired have $$$ for $$$ and to get employed in another church takes months - sometimes a year or more. The Sabbath idea was good too.

I’ve compiled some Resources online that might be helpful for Hurting youthworkers (I still have my own scars) and see some good articles online on how to hire Youthworkers, youthworkers looking for churches etc. (I’ve done this recently to YMX because it was a forum for youthworkers too) … Still do I think we could do more? Yup. I think some of the denominational leaders need to hear some of this as well.

Handling a Forced Exit

Helpful Hints to getting Hired

10 Things to know When hiring a youth pastor”

Hurting Youthworker Resources

I think like Safety houses. PastorCare (I’d like to see a Youthpastor Care division) and so forth would help. I have many ideas but think this needs to STOP. One of the things I like about Mark Riddle (Who I pick on from now and then) is he is consulting and helping churches with this. He use to just Rant and Rave but is putting into practice to help stop some of this. I do think this is and has been YS’ heart for the longest time to help youthworkers, and their students. I appreciated the last couple of NYWC to help hurting youthworkers, and appreciated the recent ones where it showcased (Not that is bad) some good stuff happening to youthworkers that overcame the odds. Recently my heart broke when I heard of churches (Former ministries of mine)abusing their pastors, and now the pastors blame me (And I’m like I left 10 yrs ago and warned you about the church and you still went there?)

Anyways … The Abuse needs to stop. I’m not sure there is an easy solution. I just pray I’m more like Jesus everyday and forgive those that do this to God’s workers.

The Big thing about Conflict Resolution is HUGE!!! I’ve done some of the PeaceMaker stuff by Ken Sande …. but more and more am asked how can I handle this situation? What is it that I can do to get along with my Senior pastor, parents, youth etc. Leadership magazine (Of which I adhor at times) had some of this on church politics in its Spring Issue. If you want to make an impact in youth ministry - turnover of staff has to be low. I think the more we equip and help youthworkers be better youthworkers The Better.

thanks for this topic marko.
It seems that the church is something of the point at which the perfect storm is created. Where several storms unto themselves collide. It can’t be reduced to one or two things,and generalizations with simplistic answers only feed the unstable atmosphere. (how’s that for working an metaphor over)

Some storms:
1.) Studies show that vocationally, pastors are per capita, more likely to function from need, or go into ministry to meet a personal need they have. Some might dismiss this, but don’t be too quick to.

2. People come to the church with different assumptions about every aspect of why the church exists. Pastors, students, parents, congregation folks, etc all come with different assumptions about why we do what we do. These assumptions feed expectations.

3. We’ve lost track of the role of pastor (as it’s been understood historically) and replaced it with the role of leader (21st century understanding of leadership)

4. We’ve let a american (individualistic, therapeutic, technological, militeristic) worldview inform our understanding of christianity.

5. We don’t like conflict. (who does)

6. We like conflict. (yep, some of us do)

7. We don’t think systemically. We don’t understand how what we do informs our community and their expecations.

8. Youth Pastor - has become a professionally legitimate vocation. This has impacted the church tremendously. We have failed to recognize the consequences of actually having a youth ministry.

9. We measure the wrong things. We as youth pastors feed off the wrong encouragement.

10. Senior Pastors have too many expectations place upon them and they can not live up to them.

11. Ditto for Youth Pastors.

Ok. that’s all for now… I have to pic up my 8yr old at school. Sorry if this is a bit disjointed I have a 1 year old who’s teething in my lap. maybe more later…

that was a helpful post riddle… gives a lot of reasons as to the “why” of conflict.

i know in my youth ministry i’ve been lucky. when applying for a job, i was very upfront in questioning the staff (most of the staff too, not just 1 pastor) about conflict management. They all gave similar answers (and so now i hold them too that).

The other thing that is helpful is (and i’m lucky here) that one of my best friends is the senior pastor (we are about 10 years in age difference). We are totally upfront with each other, which helps build good relationship and respect for each other. I also take time to spend with the elders (lunches, phone conversations, etc…). This helps in us having a more open relationship.

it makes me wonder though, why do youth pastors seem to have a distant relationship with their SP & elders so often? Does this contribute to the problem? maybe not seeking out a relationship is one way we contribute to the problem…

yeah Marko Cincinnati Bible College offers a degree in preaching

i guess i’ve been learning (again) lately that no story is the whole story, that no person holds the whole truth about a situation.

i’ve found that there are some battles not worth fighting, and that if i give them up before i’ve started fighting them, the battles that really are worth fighting seem to be resolved much more easily. that means sometimes i wear grown up clothes, when i normally wouldn’t. it means that sometimes i bite my tongue when i really, really want to respond. it means that sometimes, when someone pushes me for my opinion on an issue, that i choose not to respond even when i know i’m right and could prove it in an instant.

it doesn’t mean giving ground, it means i know i’m sharing ground.

wish i’d learnt all of that earlier.

very nicely said, ella

ella thanks for your post and I agree totally. There is a time and a season (hmmm… doesn’t the Bible say something about that). battles are terrible things (I’ve been a part of many including the first gulf war) and no matter what people are hurt from them. but for those who are not a part of the battle we can play a major role of the recovering and helping those in them. I mean this for the YP and the SP and the church and who ever else. I think that is part of loving others. a listening ear and a heart of care if a wonderful thing to fall back on.

what if we had just a place for hurting people to go to that know they can be safe to share and heal. is there such a place and can it really be totally safe?

Marko-
You raise some really interesting questions, especially since I was forced into resignation this past Monday. (And, by the way, thanks to you and all the YS folks for the job bank board and resume posting. It is helping me as I sort through some of this stuff. And I am sure it costs you all a fair amount of time and money…)

As people have said, every story has two sides and here is my side of my story. I was hired 4 years ago by a certain committee of people. Those folks have now left the committee that is in charge of staff at our church. Additionally, we recieved a new pastor last June and to say he and I didn’t mesh well would be a big understatement. And the current folks in charge of staff took the “Senior pastor is law” approach to governing the staff.

There is no way to resolve conflict in that environment. Especially when the senior pastor isn’t particularly caring or invested in the staff or the church.

And there are definitely things I am bad at. Obstensibly, I was let go because I don’t relate to non-youth related adults, ie I don’t do a good job hand holding senior citizens. Which is entirely true. But I built a great team of volunteers, grew a meaningful youth ministry and related well to parents. All gone.

Someone once shared with me that all senior pastors ought to have some kind of management training and I completely agree.

Guess what guys life’s not fair, Gods not fair, and I thank Him for it everyday. 98% of the people running businesses in the real world have never had a conflict resolution class in there lives and they fire people everyday for any reason that crosses there minds. The people thy fire are forced to sign statements and have no idea how they will pay the rent next week. Do you think that God should never allow such hurt in your lives simply because you work in a church? Remember Romans 8 and commit yourselves to forgiveness and submission to the hand of GOD. I love you guys and all you do for young people but don’t forget who is really in charge.

Yesterday marked one year since my husband and I were forced out of full-time youth ministry. It has been a painful and devastating journey. I used to think that those “idiots” at YS conventions who got fired for loving Jesus too much just mistakingly picked the wrong denomination to be part of….until it happened to us (and have repented of that judgemental spirit!). How were we to explain to our children that we were forced out of our church for trying to do what the Bible was telling us to do, love and disciple students? How were we to explain that standing up for Truth might cost you more than you ever dreamed, especially when you thought you were in a place that actually believed Truth?
After 12 full-time years of Youth Min. at 2 churches, we are the more mature , respectful, professional youth workers. While we did not do everything right, we did our best to humbly remain under the authority of our Sr. Pastor and still do what it was that the Bible commanded us to do. I cannot prove the heart of our Pastor, but how can you function under one seemingly full of jealousy, pride and the need to be in control? Do you think that abuse comes from hearts that are not in the right place?
I truly believe that the abuse of youth pastors grows out of 2 roots: Sr. Pastors and board members(church staff etc.) not being true God-lovers first and foremost (our Pastor admitted to my hubby that he doesn’t even have a personal devotional time). Secondly, not loving Truth more than anything else (including the best laid out programs in the world!). If Sr. Pastors and youth pastors do not love God first and foremost with all their hearts, souls, minds and strength, then our love and intentions will be misguided. If we do not love Truth more than anything else then we will turn a blind eye to sin and “peace-keep” instead of “peace-make”. If we ignore these 2 things, then we turn our churches into nothing more than corporate organizations who run through the power of programs, and not the Holy Spirit. Our first responsibility is to know God’s Word and love Him; my ministry should overflow out of my love for God once I have been filled to the top with Him. When it’s all about Him, it won’t be about clothes and rules, nor games and programs only for the sake of amusement.
In essence, its solution is revival in the hearts of men! Not just believing God, but depending on Him. Easier said than done…
I don’t believe that God will waste our hurt-I have to believe that. I also believe that God allowed this to take us to brokenness…to deeper relationship with Him (and each other), and so that we will remember the pain and not do the same to someone else. There is so much more I have learned…but I’ll spare you my rambling. When God takes any of His broken vessels back into ministry (including us?), our gifts will be resurrected for His glory and not our own.
(If you, like us, have been wounded more than you could have ever imagined, search the web and check out a ministry run by Campus Crusade for Christ called “Oasis”. It is more than worth the time and money…I don’t know where we’d be without it.)

[…] i’m not saying youth pastors bear no responsibility. i’ve said this before, that we need to own up to our collective immaturity and the role it plays in all of this crud. […]